Interview with Ali Moore, ABC Melbourne Drive
19 June 2024
ALI MOORE: That was the state government, the Premier Jacinta Allan, there and of course before her, Peter Dutton, because Peter Dutton, the federal opposition, has announced its nuclear plan today. Seven nuclear power plants. The first two to be up and running by 2035 or 2037, depending on the technology. One of them will be in the Latrobe Valley. We're not sure, there are two Loy Yang power stations there. We're not sure whether it's A or B that the Coalition is referring to. I've been asking you, does it pass the pub test with what you know and what you don't know? What do you make of the opposition's nuclear plan? 1300 222 774. Keep your calls coming first, though. Jane Hume is a Shadow Minister for Finance and a Liberal Senator for Victoria. Jane Hume, welcome back to Drive.
JANE HUME: Good afternoon Ali.
ALI MOORE: You are promising cheaper power. How much cheaper and when? And to the point of a caller that we had earlier, how do you know if you haven't costed it?
JANE HUME: Well, Ali, let's take a step back first. I mean, I think we all agree that Australia deserves and should expect to be able to access reliable and affordable electricity. Under Labor, right now this is not happening. Labor's put all their eggs in one basket with a very expensive, renewables only approach to our electricity system, and that's left Australians paying some of the highest power bills in the world. And in my home state of Victoria, risking the lights going out as we potentially run out of energy.
ALI MOORE: So how much cheaper will it be with nuclear power?
JANE HUME: Well, today we've announced seven locations, located at are closing coal fired power stations that are scheduled to close. That's the announcement today. There will be more detail on costings that will come out in time. What I can tell you, however, is that all those countries that have nuclear power as part of their energy mix are paying lower energy bills than we are paying in Australia. You look at somewhere like Ontario, where nuclear constitutes around 60% of its energy mix, now households are paying around $0.14 a kilowatt hour. That's about four times less than some Australian households in the US state of Tennessee, which has around 44% of nuclear in the mix, households are paying around $0.18 a kilowatt hour. That's around three times less than some Australian households. So you can see how, including zero emissions nuclear in your energy mix, not as the only solution, but as part of the solution, you can actually bring down your energy prices over time and establish that credible pathway to net zero.
ALI MOORE: Two points I'd make there. You used two examples. One is the US, one is Canada, the US got its first nuclear plant in the late 50s. Canada got theirs in the late 60s. So these are plants that are well established and the costs have been built in. I don't know whether you can necessarily say, well, that's what they're getting for power over there. So if we build nuclear, we'll get it over here. And I suppose, are you essentially asking people to take you on a promise because you keep saying it's cheaper, but there is absolutely no guide as to how much cheaper and when it will become cheaper. And does that require, the when, does that require all seven reactors to be up and running?
JANE HUME: Well, there'll be more announcements about this in the future. Obviously, this is a conversation that's come such a long way just in two years alone. But the public seem to be most interested in where the nuclear power plants were going to be and what the community benefits would be that went along with them. That's what we've announced today. But there will be more as part of this. It's a very, very big nation building project, and it's going to be done in a staged way so that we can bring people along on this journey, because it is a really important one for the prosperity and the opportunities-
ALI MOORE: So in locations for your home state, for this state, for Victoria, it just said in your media release, Loy Yang power stations are there are two.
JANE HUME: There are two.
ALI MOORE: Which one are you thinking of? They're owned by different companies.
JANE HUME: Yes one is owned by AGL and the other one is owned by Alinta. Between the two of them, they account for about 50% of Victoria's energy right now. But we know that one is going to retire in around 2035. The other one in, I think it's around 2045, maybe 2047.
ALI MOORE: So which one are you targeting?
JANE HUME: Well, obviously as coal fired power stations retire, that's when it would be appropriate to consider transferring them to nuclear because that's when the site becomes available. These sites have been chosen very carefully. They've been chosen because they already have the infrastructure-
ALI MOORE: And I get that. I'm just wondering which site is it A or is it B?
JANE HUME: Well, it is a that is retiring in 2035 and B that's retiring a little later than that. So they would be considered as they retire.
ALI MOORE: So there could be two sites. You could have two reactors in Victoria.
JANE HUME: Well they're literally next door to each other. They use the same mine, the same infrastructure so that would make sense.
ALI MOORE: To have two reactors?
JANE HUME: Well, you could have multiple generators on the one site, yes.
ALI MOORE: So now we could get eight then, not seven.
JANE HUME: Look, I mean, I think you're now conflating the issue. This is a plan to have a nuclear energy generating facility on this particular site because the infrastructure is there.
ALI MOORE: Can we afford seven or however many nuclear reactors end up being in the final plan? We already have a massive bill for AUKUS.
JANE HUME: Well the plan at this stage is to establish a government business enterprise, the Affordable Energy Australia it will be called and that will be financed through a combination of debt and equity. This is not an unusual, uh, structure for government business enterprise, as you’ll think of NBN or Snowy Hydro, for instance. And then we'll have partnership arrangements with some experienced nuclear companies. But it'll be the government that owns and develops and operates the establishment projects.
ALI MOORE: Okay, sorry, can we just clarify that the government that owns, builds and operates, I thought that one of these nuclear companies would do the operation.
JANE HUME: Sorry, the partnership arrangements with these established nuclear companies will do the operation of the projects. Obviously, that makes perfect sense. These are companies that have had plenty of experience in the nuclear industry right around the world and experience in these new generation reactors, which, you know, we've said a number of times, Australia is not going to build a first of a kind reactor. This is not a unique Australian experience. We're only going to select those internationally proven technologies that are generation three and beyond. It will be performed by experts-
ALI MOORE (interrupts): so operated by experts. But uh, 100%-
JANE HUME: -technology selection will be by experts as well. Whether it will be a small modular reactor or whether it will be a larger generation three and beyond reactor.
ALI MOORE: 100% of the funding from the government, from us?
JANE HUME: Well, 100% of the funding is coming from both a mixture of debt and equity, in the same way that you would see a normal government, business enterprise. But can I tell you, I don't know that there is some concern about this idea of cost, but the costs are a tiny proportion of the 1.2 to $1.5 trillion that Labor's plan is going to cost, and that's not a coalition pointing to that number. That was a study done by Melbourne University, Queensland University and Princeton University that said that Labor's plan was going to cost 1.2 to $1.5 trillion dollars, trillion dollars. This is nothing like, this is a fraction of that cost.
ALI MOORE (interrupts): But I guess, is it a recognition-
JANE HUME: and it’s a viable credible pathway to net zero with sustainable baseload power.
ALI MOORE: But I guess is it a recognition that they would not be commercially viable?
JANE HUME: Well, in order to establish a government business enterprise, there has to be a long term commercial rate of return.
ALI MOORE: I'm just wondering why they have to be government owned. I mean, the current, the power stations that you're looking at taking over when the power stations close down you don't own any of them. They're all, as you just said yourself, for the two in Victoria, it's AGL and Alinta. Why do you need to own them if they're going to be commercially viable? Why does the government have to hold them and pay for them?
JANE HUME: This is a very big step in our energy future in Australia. We understand that. Now, we'll have more to say about the financing in due course, but the most important thing here is that the Coalition's plan will achieve those emissions reductions far more cheaply and with greater assurance than Labor's dizzying array of taxpayer subsidies for renewables. And it will also obviate the need for construction of an additional 28,000km of environmentally destructive high voltage power lines. That's the equivalent of running twice around the perimeter of Australia, but it's going to criss cross through rural and regional Australia. That's going to cost up to 1.3 to $1.5 trillion, and Labor have received no social licence from affected communities.
ALI MOORE: You're listening to Jane Hume who's a shadow minister for finance on seven over seven for ABC Radio Melbourne. Keep your calls coming about what you think of the coalition's policy. 1300 222 774. If I can get to I guess, try to get to the issue of just a little bit more detail around this consultation with local communities is key to what Peter Dutton announced today. Consultation around what? Because you've locked the sites in, you've said they've got the various technical requirements that you need. So what are you talking to local communities about?
JANE HUME: Well, we want to make sure that local communities have their questions answered.
ALI MOORE (interrupts): But also but if they're not happy, they don't have a choice, do they?
JANE HUME: But also that they understand what the benefits would be to them. I mean, it's not just although this is very important that they will each get a multi-billion dollar facility that guarantees higher paying jobs for generations to come, and particularly in somewhere you know, where Loy Yang is, you know, Traralgon, Morwell, Moe, these are, you know, these are communities that I think would find enormous benefit from attracting those industries, those higher paying jobs, even just within the construction and operational phases. But there's more to it than that as well. Obviously these communities will have, economic development, an economic development zone that will attract manufacturing and, value add and high tech industry as well. Everything from, you know, high value manufacturing and defence, or smelting or minerals processing or high tech sectors like data centres. This will create an entire new, you know, economic opportunity for these areas.
ALI MOORE: Can I ask you-
JANE HUME: Of course there is going to be infrastructure that goes with it, things like roads and, um, you know, rail and whatever might be needed, telecommunications, housing around those areas and public services.
ALI MOORE: So that's even more money.
JANE HUME: Well, they are part of the regional deals that will be negotiated between the local communities and the federal government, with input, of course, from state and local governments too.But they would be an integral part of this programme
ALI MOORE: You obviously, although we don't have costings, you've obviously done the modelling. You're really confident that this is going to work, that it makes sense that you're confident enough, that you can promise us cheaper and more consistent electricity. So can you tell us what proportion of power will be generated by nuclear once your seven plants are up and running?
JANE HUME: No, and I can't tell you that right now, because we know that there are going to be renewables in the mix as there are now, plus gas, plus nuclear. At the moment it's renewables, plus gas, plus coal-
ALI MOORE (interrupts): Sure, but you can't say whether nuclear would be-
JANE HUME: shift to an energy mix of renewables, plus gas, plus nuclear. It will depend of course-
ALI MOORE (interrupts): But what will be the balance.
JANE HUME: Well it will depend, of course, how long it takes to get each of these new plants up and running and producing. And of course, on the existence of, you know, gas facilities at the same time and renewables at that time. So it's very hard for me to predict today what the mix will look like in 50 years. But what we can say is that there will be nuclear in 50 years, because nuclear has such a long lifespan, it can be around for somewhere between 60 and 100 years, a nuclear power plant.
ALI MOORE: And of course, the waste has got an even longer lifespan. So what are you going to do with that?
JANE HUME: Yeah, well, I mean, I think this is one of those issues that's profoundly misunderstood because we've been managing nuclear waste and radioactive waste for a long time in this country as part of Lucas Heights. But it's also, you know, been proven, zero emissions nuclear, has been proven to be one of the safest forms of energy, due in large part to its very successful management of waste. You know, in fact, a pellet of uranium is about the size of a jelly bean or a gummy bear, and it produces the same amount of energy as a tonne of coal. So you can see how this is actually a far more efficient use of energy, including waste.
ALI MOORE: But it doesn't resolve the problem. You've still got to do something with it.
JANE HUME: Well, as part of the AUKUS agreement, we'll soon be managing spent fuel from the reactors that are used in submarines. So the Government's currently looking for a permanent repository for this purpose. It actually has to do it already. So this is something that Australia is already on the way to doing. And it's something that we're very confident that Australian science and scientists can manage.
ALI MOORE: So we don't obviously there's a lot that we still don't know. There's also the date of the election that we don't know. But can you guarantee that between now and the election we will have those questions answered. We will know the costs. We will know the timings, we will know the technology, we will know what the impact will be on our climate targets?
JANE HUME: I think we can safely say that this is the first step in a journey on towards a nuclear energy future in Australia. It's a very exciting one too. This is a bold plan, but it's not a reckless plan. We want to make sure that we bring all Australians along on that journey.
ALI MOORE: So to that end, will we have all the information about timing, about cost, about pricing before the election?
JANE HUME: Any questions that you have to ask about nuclear before the election, I am certain will be answered.
ALI MOORE: Okay. Jane Hume, thank you for joining us. Thanks, Ali. That is the Shadow Minister for Finance there, Liberal Senator for Victoria.