Interview with Ali Moore, ABC Radio Melbourne

4 November 2024

ALI MOORE: Right now, though, you've been hearing what the Government is promising to do. If it wins the next election, it's going to cut HECS debts by 20%, it's going to lower minimum repayments, and it's going to lift the income threshold at all if they are re-elected. The Opposition, the Federal Opposition says that it is profoundly unfair. The Government says it's a major boost for young Australians. Which do you think it is? 1300222774 the number. Jane Hume is the Shadow Minister for Finance and a Senator for Victoria. Jane Hume welcome.

JANE HUME: Good afternoon Ali.

ALI MOORE: Why is it profoundly unfair?

JANE HUME: Well, first of all, this announcement shows that Labor have essentially given up on the fight against inflation because that's why student debts have gone up. So much. They're not they don't have they're not subject to interest rates, but they are subject to indexation. And because inflation has been too high for too long, that's why we've seen student debts go up. So this is essentially compensating people for a problem that is of the Government's making. Instead of trying to address the cost of living crisis, they're trying to pick a particular section of the community that suffered from the cost of living and compensating them. And there's about 3 million of them. And that 3 million, I think Labor are pretty concerned attending to vote Greens. So they've decided that they're going to buy back those 3 million Australians that have a HECS debt and that the rest of us, the 24 million that don't have a debt, are going to be the ones that pay for it. In fact, all Australians will pay for it in the long run because it's hideously expensive. It's $16 billion.

ALI MOORE: So just a couple of things. You're saying inflation is what's increased the size of the debt. What about the job ready graduates package?

JANE HUME: Well, the Job Ready Graduates Package was to encourage people to take on study in those areas where there is most demand for work.

ALI MOORE: But it hasn't worked, has it? What it's actually done is it's driven up the cost of some degrees. I think there's been a 1% movement in the trend of which courses people are taking.

JANE HUME: Well, for those students that have decided to study a humanities degree, that might be the case. I know that I have children of my own that have decided to study humanities degree, and they've said that they'll pay for the HECS debt that comes with it, but that's their choice. The Job Ready Graduates programme was about getting people into those areas like engineering, like technology, like mathematics, where there is huge demand in the Australian workforce.

ALI MOORE: But also if you look at that engineering, you have massive earning capacity when you've done an engineering degree. So do you think the Jobs Ready Graduates package really calibrated the cost of the degree with the potential for earning exactly right?

JANE HUME: In fact, graduates of university degrees have about a 30% higher earning capacity than those that don't go to university. Yet this Government's decision means that those that haven't gone to university are going to be subsidising those that have, even though those that have a higher earning capacity, which is why it is inherently an unfair decision. And it's not just the Coalition that is saying it. Almost every credible independent economist is saying so too, that it's essentially like a reverse Robin Hood. It's a tax cut targeted to those that can earn, and it's going to be paid for by those that are less well off.

ALI MOORE: But Jane Hume isn't there an enormous amount of government policy that is designed to impact a particular group. And for example, I got a text earlier, negative gearing. I mean, I helped to fund negative gearing. I don't negative gear.

JANE HUME: This is a decision that the Government has actively made to try and buy the votes of 3 million Australians, but it's at the expense of all of us. And of course, those so is negative gearing at the expense of all of us, those that have gone out and done the right thing and tried to pay off their HECS debt, tried to pay it off early, that haven't gone overseas or have, you know, taken two jobs rather than one. They've done the right thing and have paid off their HECS debt. They're going to get nothing. And equally, those that earn that study after 2025, they're not going to have their HECS debt paid off either. This is a very select group of people that Labor are specifically targeting in a very unfair way, and this is a choice that they are making. But you can understand why people would rightly be upset by that $16 billion. Imagine what you could do with $16 billion. This is an abominable idea. It's a populist idea, and it's an idea that has been taken from the Greens playbook now. If Labor want to go in that direction well, so be it but it is not an economically credible policy.

ALI MOORE: But what would you do? So what would you do to assist young people who carry a huge debt burden?

JANE HUME: Well, the most important thing you can do is get inflation back under control. And you know that because this is not something that we were talking about under a Coalition Government, the reason why we weren't talking about it is because inflation was running at such low rates, it didn't really make a dent in fact, it only ran at about 1.7% per annum on average under the Coalition government. Inflation has been allowed to get out of control under Labor, and that's why HECS debts have gone through the roof

ALI MOORE: So what would you do to assist young people? I mean, you're saying that you're completely happy with where or how the whole HECS system works?

JANE HUME: Well, the most important thing we could do is make sure that we have a productive and thriving economy, invest in an economy that has lower energy prices, less red tape, and regulation, an industrial relations system that works for employers as well as employees so that there are more jobs to be had and have lower and simpler and fairer taxes on the way through. At the same time, instilling that sense of fiscal responsibility and good economic management that keeps inflation under control while growing the economy. That means that a HECS debt is an obligation that people are willing to pay because it is a user pay system. Now, understand to Ali, about 60% of all university fees are already paid for by the Commonwealth, already paid for by the taxpayer. This is a small amount on top. That is an acknowledgement that university graduates earn more in their working life than those that don't have a degree. But now, those that don't have a degree are going to be paying even more

ALI MOORE: If I can just ask you about another issue, you'd be well aware this afternoon of course, Federal Parliament is sitting. Independent MPs Allegra Spender, Helen Haines, I'm not sure, but I think a couple of the other Teal MPs have announced that they are giving up their memberships, their invitation only memberships of the Qantas Chairman's Lounge, that it is time to end the practise of politicians accepting airline upgrades, that they are writing to the airlines, asking them not to give free upgrades to any MPs or senators. Do you think that's a good move?

JANE HUME: Well, I was wondering how long it was going to take the teals to come out on this one. We've been talking about this for about a week now, and despite their platitudes about holding the, you know, out for a higher standard of integrity, they've been largely missing in action on this. They've come out today now that the television cameras are on them and the questions are being asked, I do think that there has been a conflation of issues here. It is very much one thing to receive a gift and to declare that gift appropriately. Nobody is saying that hasn't been done. But the issue here around the Prime Minister is that he solicited a gift, solicited a favour from the airlines, from Qantas while he was transport minister, while he was responsible for making decisions about the viability of this company, of this sector. This was the Prime Minister of the country seeking a personal benefit for himself and his family.

ALI MOORE: Jane Hume, I don't want to prosecute this case. I don't want to prosecute that case again. I'm actually just more curious as to whether you think, I mean, this whole point that the independents are making, however belatedly, in your view, is that the public can't really have confidence in decisions when airlines are handing out freebies and perks to MPs. Is it your view, your contention that as long as you declare it, doesn't matter? And if it is your contention, why do you think they do it? I mean, why would a company give largesse to a politician? Why? What would be the possible motivation?

JANE HUME: Well, I sort of feel like I'm confused here about what the largesse is that is making the decision different. So and I'll give you an example, I've declared in all of my pecuniary interests that I was given access to the Qantas lounge and indeed the Virgin Lounge as well. And I openly declared that at the beginning of a Senate Cost of Living hearing committee, when we had Alan Joyce appearing. So, clearly…

ALI MOORE: Sure, yes.

JANE HUME: So clearly it is not.

ALI MOORE: Declaring it is one thing.

JANE HUME: Yes.

ALI MOORE: But do you think declaring it removes any potential conflict of interest, perceived or otherwise? Because don't you have to ask why?

JANE HUME Sorry, clearly it did for me.

ALI MOORE: Why is Qantas doing it? What's in it for Qantas?

JANE HUME: That's a very good question because you know there was Qantas. There was Alan Joyce appearing in front of the committee. We hold them in front of that committee. And I declared in front of that committee, as did my colleagues, that we were members of the lounge in which they, that they had provided us. So if it doesn't cloud your judgement, I don't think anyone would suggest that my lounge membership had any impact on my ability to do my job. What's the problem?

ALI MOORE: So you don't agree with this point that the public can't have confidence in decisions when airlines are handing out freebies? As long as it's declared, it's okay.

JANE HUME: Is that what the Teals are saying? I mean, I think that the Teals that have come out and said that, I mean, to begin with, they don't actually do much travel for their work. You know, one of them is, I think in Sydney, the other one is about four hours outside of Canberra. They probably drive to Canberra anyway. I’m not entirely sure you're seeing Independents from Western Australia. The ones that do an awful lot of travel come out and agree with this. It's very inappropriate. I think it's a little bit like a bald man saying, I don't need a comb, so I'm going to come out and demand that no one else uses a comb.

ALI MOORE: Just a final question, Jane Hume, what about the idea that politicians should go back to ensuring that they take the cheapest possible flight? And it's not always just a hop on Qantas?

JANE HUME: Yeah, I mean, I think that most parliamentarians do that. I know that I think I've taken about eight flights in the last week, and some of them were Qantas and some of them were Virgin. And that tends to be the case. It is a matter of not just finding the cheapest flight, but the one that will get you there on time in the time that you're choosing to get there. And so sometimes it's just a matter of, you know, making sure which one of them has the most convenient timetable as well.

ALI MOORE: Jane Hume thanks for talking to us.