Interview with Clinton Maynard, 2GB Drive

4 February 2025

CLINTON MAYNARD: Parliament has resumed in Canberra today and there is a fight over the use of Treasury resources. Now, what this concerns is the policy of the Coalition and Peter Dutton to provide tax deductions for small business lunches, and I'll get on to that in just a moment, what actually that means. But what the Coalition is upset about is that the government themselves, and this is a political fight, the government themselves has asked Treasury officials to provide the costings of it. Usually what happens is there's an independent body called the PBO, which comes up with the cost of a policy of an opposition or a government during an election campaign. And there's actually a big difference in what the PBO has costed this policy and what Treasury has costed it. Senator Jane Hume is the Shadow Finance Minister. Thank you for your time, Senator.

JANE HUME: Great to be with you, Clinton. Now you have to excuse the sound of the bells in the background. I don't have to go to this one, but if they go again, I might. So just forgive me for the background noise. It's like this every day in Canberra.

CLINTON MAYNARD: I appreciate your time, Senator. Understand those constraints in Parliament House. Look, I'll get on to what the actual policy means in a moment. But you are upset and the Coalition is upset that Treasury is conducting the costing. Just on the outset, isn't that a good thing? Wouldn't Treasury actually have the experts who would be able to provide the proper analysis of any policy?

JANE HUME: Well, the Parliamentary Budget Office has the experts that the Coalition and indeed other people on the crossbench might use, whereas Treasury provides the work to government. There is a long standing convention that Treasury doesn't cost opposition policies, and that means that there can't be a politicisation of policies that are put out by an opposition. It was actually done. It was the PBO was established by a Labor government for this very reason. But in the interview that Jim Chalmers did, he said that they had asked Treasury to cost the announced policy from the Coalition. This has never happened before. It's actually outrageous because they've got it so wrong. They've used all sorts of assumptions that we haven't used and come out with this enormous figure, this great big scare campaign about a policy that is really popular, really sensible and is there to help small businesses.

CLINTON MAYNARD: I'll ask you about that policy in a moment. But just on that variation. So the Parliamentary Budget Office has estimated that this policy would cost $250 million in total.

JANE HUME: Less than 250.

CLINTON MAYNARD: The Treasury estimates that, the variation with Treasury is actually quite massive. The cost would be between 1.6 billion and 10 billion.

JANE HUME: Yeah it’s crazy.

CLINTON MAYNARD:So who do we believe? I mean, you're going to tell us PBO, but what us poor voters have got to make a call on this. We're just left confused.

JANE HUME: Well, this is a policy that the Coalition have worked very carefully with the Parliamentary Budget Office on. It's a small, modest proposal and it's specifically there to help small business. Whereas the assumptions that Labor have used to try and politicise this policy and politicise the use of the Treasury are just out of the realms of reality. They've said that every small business is going to use it. Everybody's going to deduct the maximum amount. Everybody is going to try and rort the system. I mean, it's just nuts. This is a policy that is specifically for small businesses to allow their staff or their employees or clients take them out to lunch. No alcohol. It's just about rewarding your staff or building new business. It's because small businesses have asked for these policies. And not only that, but it helps the cafes and restaurants and the pubs that have done it so hard under Labor's cost of living crisis.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Now just on that, Jane. So I haven't followed this particular policy all that closely. So, is this is providing a tax break so people can go out to lunch. Why should the taxpayer be covering those costs?

JANE HUME: Well, the businesses cover the costs. All it is, it means...

CLINTON MAYNARD:That there'll be no what? No, fringe benefit tax?

JANE HUME: Yeah. At the end of the year there's no fringe benefits tax and the business can deduct that policy. So you know big businesses can do this already because...

CLINTON MAYNARD (interrupts): So it's a tax deduction.

JANE HUME: …they have boardroom lunches and things which means that they're tax deductible. But small businesses can't do that.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Why don’t you just get rid of it, why don't you just say our big business. ‘you're not going to claim a tax deduction for a turkey sandwich at lunch and we won't let the small businesses do it anyway’. Why should there be a tax deduction for lunch?

JANE HUME: We reckon this is a really good way to bring people back into the office, to make sure that you build your teams, that, you know, if you're a tradie and you've got a team working with you, well, why not? At the end of a job, take them out to the pub and, you know, shout them a counter meal, you know.

CLINTON MAYNARD: But I had a chicken and salad sandwich. I had a chicken and salad sandwich at 11:00 this morning. I'm not allowed to claim that for a deduction, am I?

JANE HUME: Did you do that with your team? Did you reward them?

CLINTON MAYNARD: No, I.

JANE HUME: The producers and…

CLINTON MAYNARD: I just paid for it.

JANE HUME: …that work on your show. I think it's a terrific way to go.

CLINTON MAYNARD: So under the deal. So I've got, Ned working for me and Emily and Ben and Michael, I could shout them lunch at KFC and I could claim that back. But if I go and buy a sandwich myself, I can't claim that.

JANE HUME: Yes, that's exactly right. Because one of your staff might be going on maternity leave. They might be retiring. They might be taking a new job. This is a way to bring your staff together or to build new business. So if you're a small business and you want to.

CLINTON MAYNARD (talks over): I reckon there’d be other ways of doing business.

JANE HUME: …meet a new client or whatever it might be, this is a way of building your own business. And this is something that small businesses have asked for. And it's particularly something that the hospitality sector has asked for.

CLINTON MAYNARD: Jane, I reckon you've got a real I reckon you've got a really good point about whether Treasury should be involved in costing policies. It should be done by an independent body. That's not political and the PBO is the best one on that. I think we could debate the issue of deductions for a free sandwich until the cows come home, and probably disagree on that. Thanks for your time, Senator.

JANE HUME: Great to be with you. Clinton.