Interview with Jane Norman, ABC Capital Hill

30 November 2022

JANE NORMAN: Let's bring in our Tuesday political panel now. I am joined in the studio by Assistant Defence Minister Thistlethwaite and Jane Hume. Welcome to you both. Let's start with you, Matt. I wanted to ask about the direct referendum. Were you surprised that the Nationals came out so early in the process to oppose this and what impact do you think it will have?

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: I am surprised and disappointed, I must say. It appears that they have not even tried. There is still a long way to go in this campaign and they came out so early and dismissed the idea without the consultation that I think is necessary to make a decision like that. It has been an issue for a long time with the Uluru Statement from the Heart part, and it is about respecting the wishes of First Nations Australians about how government should interact with them, and giving them the right to be consulted about issues affecting them and their welfare, and that is what they are saying they want from government and I believe we have a responsibility to at least hear them out and, certainly, to work with them to try and make the voice a reality.

JANE NORMAN: One of the criticisms has been putting aside the Nationals criticism, but it has been about the detail. We know what this referendum is designed to do is transcribe a voice, a committee made up of First Nations Australians to advise the Parliament on issues affecting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. When will we see an education campaign so people know the finer details of this?

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: You will start to see that in the New Year and in the caucus today in the Labor Party, we have approved some changes to the referendum that will make it necessary to modernise that act and facilitate more modern discussion around constitutional reform. There is already a fair bit of detail around the Voice report, we have a consultant Dave committee set up of First Nations leaders working with government and more of that detail will be released earlier in the year.

JANE NORMAN: Are you satisfied with the level of detail at the moment and where does the Liberal Party stand on the issue of the Voice?

JANE HUME: There is no detail on what model is that will fundamentally change the way our Parliament and Parliamentary democracy operates. And I think it is fair and reasonable that the Australian people get some answers to questions rather than just get told this will be fine, don't worry about it, if you don't like it, you are racist. It is the position of the Labor Party right now. The National Party came out with some internal processes and we respect that decision as their party, the Liberal Party has not come to a position yet. We want to be generous of spirit and really open-minded about this. But how do we make a decision without details? Every time Anthony Albanese is asked a question, he either doesn't know the answer or if he does, it raises more questions. Until we get there, we have plenty of time before this referendum is one, we will make a decision when we get there.

JANE NORMAN: Will Liberal Party actually settle on a party wide position or might it be like previous votes where MPs are given a conscience vote to vote how they're like, how their electorates want?

JANE HUME: Even a decision like that can't be made until we know what it is we are voting on. This isn’t just a let's put something in the Constitution that says there is a body. What is the body? How will it be constituted? How many people will be on it? It is complicated, and saying don't worry, it will be fine isn't really good enough.

JANE NORMAN: Are these the questions that will be answered before we get to the point of voting in this referendum?

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: We will get two more detail in the new year and that work is being done between government and the consultative group. I reject the notion that Jane put that if the Labor Party believes anyone doesn't agree with it, they are being racist, I completely reject that. Every single Australian is entitled to their view and will be respected on their view on this. But it is an important reform for us to make as a nation. We have been talking for close to 15, 20 years now about recognising the true history of Indigenous support for our nation and Connection to Country and putting that in our Constitution. The encouraging thing is that the Prime Minister is right, there is momentum building. All of the published opinion polls and all the slides and territories, and it is important in the context of a referendum, the support for the Voice, and the notion of consulting First Nations Australians about issues affecting them. The other argument I reject is that it is fundamentally changing the nature of our democracy and a parliamentary system. That is not true. It will be an advisory body to the Parliament. The parliament will not have to accept the recommendations of the body, it will be a body that advises the Parliament and there’s precedent for that in the past. What Indigenous Australians are really saying is we want something in the Constitution so it can't be taken away as it has been by governments in the past with something like ASIC. They want that enshrined in the Constitution and have the right to be consulted into the future. I think we have to respect that.

JANE NORMAN: We understand that the government, as part of these legislative changes this week, will be deciding the government will not fund the yes or no campaign, which is a departure from previous referendum. What is behind the decision?

JANE HUME: In the past, the way the referendum at work was there was a 2000 word essay that was written by member for Parliament on opposing sides, and that was then sent out to households, there was no mention in the act about the internet and the fact that we have got now modern forms of technological advancement and communications, so we are modernising that act. And we don't want this to be a divisive argument. We want this to be an issue that unites Australians. We don't want the government to be funding a divisive argument when we see this as an opportunity to bring Australians together around a notion of consulting First Nations Australians and dividing them with respect.

JANE NORMAN: Is that something the Liberal Party would act, not have public funding for a yes or no campaign?

JANE HUME: This legislation hasn't really been released this week, my great concern here is that we are going to go through and important process, a referendum without fully educating the people who are making the decision. And why not funding yes and no campaigns, by lot funding the traditional booklet that has gone out with every referendum from day one, essentially you are continuing to hide from the public what this referendum he really means, what the Voice to Parliament will actually do and how it will affect their lives. I think more education is far better than less education on a system like this, and there are a lot of people that I necessarily go to the internet, go to the website, the government's website to go get the information. Sending a booklet to ordinary Australians who will make the vote, a lot of people will appreciate that.

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: There will be an education campaign that will be funded by the government, and that will start in the New Year, and that will roll out...

JANE HUME: For the yes and no campaign?

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: That will roll out the basis, the reason why the government is advancing this important reform, what it will mean for our system of democracy, how it will work, and how Australians can participate...

JANE HUME: But will it be from both sides?

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: We want this to be an issue that unites Australians rather than divides us, and that is why we made a decision. It is important that the legislation, the changes to the Referendum Act will go to the appropriate parliamentary committee, and they will conduct an inquiry and every Australian will have the opportunity to have their say on whether or not they believe these reforms are appropriate. As the Attorney General has said, it has been 23 years since we had a referendum in Australia. We are out of practice and the act is not up to date, and we need to update it.

JANE HUME: My concern is if you do it this way you will look shifty and you are setting yourself up for failure. We want to see Indigenous recognition in the Constitution, we want to see you succeed but you are going to fail unless you are honest with the Australian people.

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: That is why we are interesting the reforms now. We have plenty of time, it will go to the committee for people to have their say, and we can basically spend the first half of next year getting this reform right in terms of the act and how it will be delivered.

JANE NORMAN: On the Voice, we are running out of time because Question Time is happily approaching, but it was said yesterday by Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young that they have oppose this they will find themselves on the wrong side of history. Is that whether Liberal Party will find yourself if you come to a position that there are too many questions left unanswered?

JANE HUME: There are too many hypotheticals, we haven't got enough detail to get to any position at all at the moment. Most importantly, what the Nationals said is the voice to Parliament doesn't address Indigenous disadvantage, and that should be the most pressing issue right now for all Australians. If you really want to ensure that Indigenous Australians are treated equally and have the same opportunities as everybody else, it should be the number one issue.

JANE NORMAN: The Coalition was in power for nearly 10 years and the argument has been made that the government had a chance to be narrowing those gaps in terms of Indigenous disadvantage and here we are.

JANE HUME: There is no doubt that there is an intractable problem here, but we shouldn't give up on it. We should be dedicating more resources, more intellectual power, more new ideas into closing the gap.

JANE NORMAN: Last word on this, because we have run out of time. When it comes to the need for broad party support, say there is a whole new generation of voters and you don't think that will be the key to getting this referendum over the line.

MATT THISTLETHWAITE: Certainly younger voters are going to be crucial. If you are under 40 and never voted in a referendum in Australia. I am encouraged by the discussions and the conversations I am having with younger Australians. I think they understand that our Constitution doesn't reflect the true history of Australia, and that First Nations Australians have made a great contribution to this country and they deserve the right to be consulted about issues affecting them, and that is what the Voice is about.

JANE NORMAN: Thank you for your time today. I hoped to cover more topics but we ran out of time.