Interview with Natalie Barr, Sunrise

1 May 2024

NATALIE BARR: The Prime Minister is under growing pressure this morning to sack two of his Cabinet Ministers in the wake of an immigration detainee disaster. The Opposition Leader is calling for Immigration Minister Andrew Giles and Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil to resign after a Perth grandmother and her husband were bashed in their own home, allegedly at the hands of a released immigration detainee who had been bailed multiple times. Joining me now is Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil and Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume Good morning to both of you. Clare, there are calls this morning for your resignation over this catastrophic failure that has left 73 year old grandmother, Ninette and her husband bashed and bruised. Will you resign?

CLARE O’NEIL: Nat before we get into that, could I just express my deepest sympathies to Phillip and Ninette Simmons, who have been the victim of this horrendous crime. Every Australian is entitled to feel safe in their own home, and the fact that this occurred within someone's home, I think, just makes it all the more violent and horrendous, and I really do express my deepest sympathies to them. Now, with regard to your question, you played that footage of Peter Dutton calling for resignations, and I would just say I think it was a bit disappointing yesterday to see the opposition immediately out playing the politics on this matter. We've got a really important issue to resolve here. Your viewers will remember that this particular individual and others like him were kept in immigration detention by our government. But the High Court of Australia made a decision last year which required us to remove those people from detention. Now since then, we have been really firmly focused on trying to protect the community. We've invested $255 million in police and law enforcement. We've put in place new laws that help protect the community at a time like this and we're not finished. There is a law before the Parliament at the moment that will assist in managing this issue. We would like Jane and her colleagues to come and support us on it.

NATALIE BARR: We know you are trying, but Ninette and her husband, I think, needed more than thoughts and prayers here. This man was on state charges of trespass, driving and drugs. He was before the court several times. One of those charges I understand was a federal charge, a visa charge that had to be withdrawn because of a government bungle, by your government. Why was he not wearing an ankle bracelet?

CLARE O'NEIL: So Nat just to repeat the point here. This person was in immigration detention until the High Court of Australia took away the Commonwealth’s power to detain that person and I would say to you again, as I've said to you before, if I had any power to put that person back in detention, that is exactly what I would do. Now, what you've referred to there is a bunch of decisions that were made by State courts, usually with regard to state crimes. I'm not going to refer to the specifics of this individual case. But as a Commonwealth Minister, I can't do anything to change what State courts decide to do with regard to bail.

NATALIE BARR: I don't think the State Government was responsible for his ankle bracelet was it? Wasn't that the Community Protection Board?

CLARE O'NEIL: So one of the layers of protection that we have in place now is a group of very, very experienced law enforcement officials who make decisions about how people will be monitored in the community. Again, I can't speak to the specifics in this individual case, but I will say that this is one of the layers of protection we've put in place including a regime that puts in place ankle monitoring bracelets and curfews that has made that really big investment in in different ways of policing that will help protect the community.

NATALIE BARR: And you appointed them didn’t you? You set that board up, aren’t you responsible for that board and they did not give him an ankle bracelet?

CLARE O'NEIL: Well, I'm not going to comment on the specifics of the case.

NATALIE BARR: Why not?

CLARE O'NEIL: Because if I do that, then I may interrupt a prosecution of this in particular, this particular individual I'm certainly not going to take that risk.

NATALIE BARR: Ok, generally it looks like you have set up a board. We have people out there with no ankle bracelets. You said I think in February this year that your main aim is to, you and Andrew Giles, only have one thing in mind, quote, the safety of the Australian community. Do you think people feel safe out there?

CLARE O'NEIL: Well, I would say again to you Nat, that this is a result of the High Court changing the powers of the Commonwealth in regard to this particular cohort of people. The safest thing for the community is for that individual and others like him to be in immigration detention and when I had the power to maintain that situation, I did. All these people were detained and if I had the simple power to put him back in detention, I would do it in a heartbeat.

NATALIE BARR: So you accept no responsibility?

CLARE O'NEIL: What I have to do is manage the situation that the High Court has left for us in changing the law. Whether I am Home Affairs Minister or whether Jane was Home Affairs Minister, whether Peter Dutton was Home Affairs Minister. We will be grappling with the same problem and I just say to you really directly Nat that the opposition has had, you know their time playing a lot of politics with this, playing the politics within an inch of its life. I have not heard them make a single suggestion of something that could have been done differently and if they would like to do it, I'm all ears. What I would like to see is for the opposition and the government to work together to manage a legal change made by the High Court of this country in order to protect the Australian people, that is our obligation to do so.

NATALIE BARR: Clare, do you accept any responsibility here?

CLARE O'NEIL: Look, I'm a Federal Minister. My job is to make good laws and to make sure that we have good systems in place within the legal constraints that have been set out for me. Now I'd say again, if I could put the person back in detention, I would do it in a heartbeat. I want the community to be safe. What we have done is had that option taken away from us. So we have put in place the best system that we can to protect the community. We will continue to build on that system and I hope we will have the support of Jane and her colleagues when we try to do it.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, Jane. Clare says there's nothing else they can do.

JANE HUME: Let's not forget that the reason why the High Court made this decision was because evidence was given to the High Court by Minister Giles in the first place, saying that the original criminal detainee could not be deported to another country. That was wrong. So the evidence that was given to the High Court was wrong, which was why they made the decision in the first place. Clare, for the last six months, you have come on this program and said if there is anything you could do, you would do it. Yet you did not oppose bail for this criminal, for this particular criminal, even in the Commonwealth case and the magistrate said that she thought that that was generous by the Commonwealth. Where was this man's ankle bracelet? Where was his electronic monitoring that you promised us? Why was he out in the first place? Why has he been allowed to continue to wander around the streets and to commit these crimes? Quite frankly, the Westminster system of Ministerial responsibility and accountability says if things go wrong in your department, it is your fault. You'll have, I understand that decisions have been made that have been out of your control, but quite frankly, you are responsible for the most incompetent Junior Minister in the Cabinet and it falls to you. Now Ministerial responsibility says you must resign. You must resign now, and every time you look at Ninette Simon’s face, you will see the failure of your Junior Minister and yourself. This is unacceptable and I'm afraid it's time to go.

NATALIE BARR: Clare, she's right people are looking at that this morning and thinking well, I could be next, could this be my mum? Why was this violently opposed by the Commonwealth in this case?

CLARE O'NEIL: Well, I agree that the photos and the incident that occurred here is absolutely incredibly upsetting. I mean, I'm an Australian woman and I'm seeing it too. So I definitely agree with that part of what Jane said. I would just say again, we're here today, you know, Jane's continuing to go back to politics, this person should resign. This was the first instinct of the opposition when someone was hurt and I don't think that's appropriate. What I would like to do is talk about what the solutions to this are. We have a bill before the Parliament that will provide an additional layer of support to the community. Jane and her colleagues have refused to pass that bill, instead waiting around and asking questions and playing politics with that too.

JANE HUME: You gave us 24 hours.

CLARE O’NEIL: Now we've got a really difficult job to do. The High Court has made a really significant change to the way in which we manage these people in the community and we have put in place the best system that we can using every legal and police resource to protect the community.

NATALIE BARR: Does that include ankle bracelets with anyone else?

CLARE O’NEIL: I will say that the safest thing for the community is for this person to be in detention. I'm not going to deny that and if I had the power to put them back in detention, I would absolutely do that.

JANE HUME: People aren’t even safe in their own home.

CLARE O’NEIL: The High Court of Australia has made a decision which we have to as a government adapt to and I'd say great with great respect to Jane, if she was the Home Affairs Minister. If Peter Dutton was the Home Affairs Minister at this time, they would be dealing with the exact same problem that we are so I'd say come to the table and work with us on this.

JANE HUME: It never happened under a Coalition Government, it only happened under Labor.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, look, I think you both had your say, people at home are deciding but sure as hell they're feeling unsafe this morning. Thank you very much. See you next week.