Interview with Natalie Barr, Sunrise

5 June 2024

NATALIE BARR: Government Minister Bill Shorten is under growing pressure this morning to clean up the National Disability Insurance Scheme following revelations of major fraud. The NDIS is being rorted by around $4 billion every year, with taxpayer money being spent on illegal drugs, alcohol, cars, even holidays. Minister Shorten concedes the extent of fraud is difficult to measure, but accepts it is his problem to fix. Joining me now is Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil and Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume. Good morning to you. Clare, how did we get to a stage where nine out of ten NDIS managers showed signs of fraud? This is a free for all, isn't it? 

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, I think the first thing to say is that the NDIS is changing lives and we shouldn't lose sight of that. People probably remember that before the Labor Government invented the NDIS people with disability in our country were often destitute. They lived awful lives where they weren't getting opportunities to live freely as Australians should. So it's a really important scheme. But, you have talked about some of the fraud issues that Bill Shorten has uncovered here and they are extensive. When we came to office, I can tell you no one was angrier and no one was more shocked than Bill Shorten when he saw what had become of the NDIS. There are some really deep systemic issues here, and Bill talked in Parliament yesterday about the fact that he's really upset that receipts aren't getting checked, that people who are providers don't have proper registration processes. So for the last two years, he's been working through creating better controls around how this money is being spent. But it's a really big job. He's got a big mess to clean up, and I know he's the man for the task. 

NATALIE BARR: Yeah, you're right and the headlines this morning are screaming organised crime, cars, holidays, drugs. That's what's happening here. It's a rort. But you're right. People's lives are being changed. The Australian of the year, Dylan Alcott said, you know, this has changed people's lives. So let's get that set to start with. Jane, let's go to you. This was started, the trial was started in 2013. It ran across Australia in 2016. This has not happened overnight. What was your Coalition government doing to stop the rorts when you were there? 

JANE HUME: Nat, Clare’s right on one thing and that's that NDIS does change lives and it's profoundly important for the most vulnerable in Australia. However, it has been structurally faulty from day one. When Labor set it up, they set it up in such a way that it was able to be rorted and now we've seen the costs blowout. Now the Coalition have said that we will support Labor, we will work with them in any way that they can to bring it sustainably under control because at the moment it is unsustainable, and that puts at risk those packages for the most vulnerable Australians. In the meantime, the NDIS has been focused on all the wrong things we're now finding out just this week, that Minister Shorten is spending $620,000 on a speech writer to help him write more emotive speeches rather on the important issues to the NDIS. 

NATALIE BARR: Which is another topic, but let's get on to this today. Jane, are you saying that the way it was set up matters the most and it cannot be changed?

JANE HUME: Well, in fact, the Coalition tried to change the NDIS, tried to bring it back under control numerous times in Government and at every step of the way, we were blocked by Labor. That's why we've said under this Government, we will work with them to make sure that the NDIS is brought in and under control to make sure it's a sustainable program that can support our most vulnerable for decades to come. Because that's what it's set up to do. It's too important to get wrong. Minister Shorten needs to focus on what's important, not writing emotive speeches at the cost of $22,000 a speech.

NATALIE BARR: Well, Bill Shorten has spoken about that and he said this could take a couple of years to fix and he has promised to do it. Moving on, the Immigration Minister is facing further controversy this morning with another convicted criminal allowed to stay in this country. Kevin Farrugia, a Maltese national with ties to Melbourne underworld figure Tony Mokbel, who has spent the past 12 years behind bars. But, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal has overturned his deportation under Andrew Giles’ Direction 99, because of his family ties to Australia. Clare, is it getting hard to continue to defend Minister Giles?

CLARE O'NEIL: Nat, there's a few important things to understand about that specific case you've mentioned here. This person is a convicted criminal and a known associate of Tony Mokbel and that's why under Minister Giles's leadership his visa was canceled by the Home Affairs Department and what's interesting about this case is that Peter Dutton also had the opportunity to cancel this person's visa in 2019 and that did not occur. That is why this person is still in the country at the moment, and why he had the opportunity to go on and commit further crimes. I think this case actually goes right to the heart of the intense hypocrisy that we're seeing in this debate about detainees. Nat, you probably saw it was reported last week that while Peter Dutton was Home Affairs Minister and Immigration Minister, 1300 convicted criminals were released from immigration detention. 

JANE HUME: Oh Clare, you are shameless. Shameless. 

CLARE O’NEIL: Peter Dutton was asked yesterday about this particular individual, he wouldn't answer any questions, he was asked about those 1300 people, wouldn't answer any questions and I would just say that if the test that Jane and her colleagues set for Ministers in our Government was set for Peter Dutton, he would not have lasted a week when he was Home Affairs Minister. 

JANE HUME: Well, he did. He lasted much longer than a week and Peter Dutton canceled more than six and a half thousand visas in his time. That is more than any Minister since Federation. You are shameless Clare. Blaming the Coalition. 

NATALIE BARR: Jane, why are you crowing about this Furragia guy when, did Dutton have a chance to cancel it? 

JANE HUME: The reason why he's out and about now Nat is because of Direction 99 a direction put in place by Minister Giles, by Minister Giles. 

NATALIE BARR: But did Peter Dutton have a chance to cancel his visa? 

JANE HUME: Nat, this Government is looking for any excuse, pointing to anyone else for the problem. I can't answer that question. I don't know anything about this fellow, until I found out today that somehow, a mate of Tony Mokbel, a criminal underworld figure, is wandering our streets because of Direction 99. Now that I don't know, I do not understand. But I do know that Peter Dutton as Immigration Minister canceled six and a half thousand visas. That is more than any Minister since Federation and yet somehow Minister Giles, the most incompetent Minister in the Government and his Senior Minister, Minister O’Neil are somehow blaming either the victims or blaming the courts blaming okay the states of blaming the AAT, blaming Minister Dutton. 

NATALIE BARR: Okay, we’ll move on to our final topic. Jane you had a bit of a moment in Senate Estimates yesterday -

CLARE O'NEIL: What I don't like Jane is hypocrisy, what I don’t like Jane is hypocrisy. 

JANE HUME: Really I don’t like shameless behaviour of bad politics-

NATALIE BARR: You know what, no one likes the arguing do we, I think we will leave it there. See you next week guys.