Interview with Natalie Barr, Sunrise

26 June 2024

NATALIE BARR: In breaking news, Julian Assange is a step closer to becoming a free man. The Wikileaks founder has moments ago touched down on the Northern Mariana Islands. That's a shot of him on the plane. The Mariana Islands, a remote American territory in the Pacific. He will appear before a US court there later this morning. He will plead guilty to a single felony charge in return for his freedom. The 52 year old will then return to Australia, ending his 14 year legal battle. We'll bring you those shots as they happen. Joining me now, though, Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil and shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume Good morning to both of you, Clare. The government has long campaigned for Assange's release. How significant is today?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, this is an enormously important day for Julian Assange and his family, and it's news that our government really welcomes whatever you may think about Julian Assange. This is a person who was subject to a 14 year standoff and a very difficult issue for the people involved in this, and we do want to see that matter brought to a close. I want Australians to know how instrumental our prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, has been in making this happen. He was a big proponent of resolving this human rights matter long before it became a popular opinion. He's been able to raise it multiple times with US President Joe Biden, and I'm really proud to see him going out to bat for an Australian who is in trouble overseas. So good news for the country. And I'm sure most Australians are very pleased to see it.

NATALIE BARR: Yeah, lots of lobbying of course, to the US and the UK. Jane, Assange's detractors, though, argue he put lives at risk when he released those classified documents. Where do you sit on this argument?

JANE HUME: Look, it's been a consistent position of the Coalition and indeed Labor governments since Julia Gillard to respect both the UK and the US legal system. We are very pleased to see that Julian Assange is pleading guilty and putting an end to this ongoing and rather tawdry saga. Personally speaking, Julian Assange is no hero of mine. He puts lives in danger not just of counter-intelligence agents in the US but also of innocent and helpful Iraqi and Afghani citizens who were helping coalition forces. That was a reckless move. Has he paid the price? Are we glad to see that this is over? Perhaps that is so, and we're very pleased to see him returned to Australia. But I don't think that hero worship is an appropriate response.

NATALIE BARR: Look, we'll continue with more of this. We've got the live pictures. The planes landed on those Mariana Islands. That's a live shot of the airport. We'll bring you shots when he actually exits the plane. And he's due to face that court at about 9 o’clock, that's Eastern Australian time. Moving on, though. The Prime Minister is under pressure this morning to discipline one of his senators who crossed the floor against the government. Fatima Payman, voted with the Greens in their push for Palestine to be recognised as a state. There are now calls for the WA senator to be kicked out, or perhaps suspended from the Labor Party However, that's unlikely. Clare, you can probably shed more light on this. Should Senator Payman be punished or should she be able to vote how she feels?

CLARE O’NEIL: Yeah, well, Nat, I would say that Jane and I and every other member of Parliament come into elected office with really strong opinions about things and those opinions don't just disappear because you get elected to an office. So Fatima Payman has expressed a view in the Senate. It's a view that I don't think actually accords very well to Labor, Liberal and Greens lines. What I would say is that our government is focused on doing what we can through proper channels to try to bring a ceasefire and a two state solution in the Middle East. We're working hard on that. And Fatima has expressed a view.

NATALIE BARR: And so what happens to her now? Clare?

CLARE O’NEIL: Look, we'll go through a process. But I say again to you that, you know, we've got lots of people watching right now who are seeing the news every night where innocent children are dying in a conflict which they have no particular role in for no good reason. And it would be impossible, I think, not to be moved by that. So I think Fatima Payman feels really strongly about these issues for very understandable reasons. And she's expressed a view in the Senate. What I think is really obvious here, to everyone that understands this, is a really complex topic. We are not going to solve peace in the Middle East through Greens motions in the Senate. Our government is working through the proper channels to get to where we all want to be here, and that is peace. And for innocent people to stop dying in a conflict in which they have no particular part.

NATALIE BARR: Jane, Senator Payman the first Labor member to cross the floor in nearly 30 years. It was a pretty historic moment, wasn't it? What do you think of the decision?

JANE HUME: This is not just the first time that Fatima Payman has defied her Prime Minister by by sitting with the Greens this time around, but only a month ago she stood up and gave a press conference where she used that I won't repeat the phrase but a phrase that the Prime Minister himself says incites violence and antisemitism. Quite frankly, this is because the Prime Minister has been weak on this issue, he has demonstrated such weak leadership he has prevaricated over his position. He has unilaterally changed the government's position on a two state solution. So of course you can expect dissent amongst his ranks, how he deals with it is also going to be a test of his leadership. But this is an issue for the Labor Party to grapple with. One of the reasons I joined the Liberal Party is because they encourage us to think for ourselves. In the Labor Party, dissent is quashed immediately with the threat of expulsion from the party. Will they follow through? It's a good question.

NATALIE BARR: So Jane, what do you think they should do with her?

JANE HUME: That's up to them. That's up to the Labor Party. It's their rules that have been broken. Not the Liberal Party's.

NATALIE BARR: Clare, you know, Jane's, right isn't she. I mean, you've said what the problem is, but should she get a rap under over the knuckles? Or will this promote other people to speak more freely across the floor? Is this the start of a stampede?

CLARE O'NEIL:

Well, absolutely not not. And what it is, is a single Greens motion in the Senate that ultimately got defeated, very resoundingly. And I think, you know, the main focus that I have on these matters is that we've got a really serious conflict occurring in the Middle East. It's not for political placing of whatever happens in this Parliament. At the end of the day, my actual main concern here is that I don't want to see all those divisions brought home here to Australia. We've got to be able to learn how to respectfully disagree and in my opinion, that's what federal payment has been doing. I think she's got her own point of view and her own perspective, she's quite entitled to do that. And she's quite entitled to express her view as she sees fit. The important thing-

JANE HUME (interrupts): And stay a member of the Labor Party?

CLARE O'NEIL: for our Government is she, she's the input, the important thing for our government. You know, setting aside all the messy politics that goes goes on here in Canberra, is to make sure that we're doing the right thing as a good global citizen. And we're doing that under our brilliant, Foreign Minister Penny Wong, under the leadership of Anthony Albanese. We're trying to make sure-

JANE HUME (interrupts): Weak leadership that's been defied.

CLARE O'NEIL: -that we're doing to get a ceasefire and to get us a two state solution in the Middle East and that's what I think ultimately Australians want their government doing.

NATALIE BARR: And you've both had your say this morning, thank you very much. We'll see you next week.