Interview with Natalie Barr, Sunrise

21 February 2024

NATALIE BARR: For more, let's bring in Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil and Liberal Senator Jane Hume. Clare, good morning to you. Let's start with you. Look, when we heard about this yesterday, it all sounded good. But when you take away the ships we're getting rid of and put the ships we're getting, putting in, it sounds like the fleet has actually fallen in total from 11 to 10. Is that right?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, Nat this is going to be the biggest upgrade to Australia's navy since the Second World War. It is an enormously important investment. You mentioned off the top there, this is more than $11 billion over the decade and $1.7 coming four years. This is exactly the kind of big, visionary decision that we are going to need to defend our country as we go into the future. And, you know, if you think about the three of us, you know, we've been very lucky, actually, when you think about the peace and stability we've enjoyed in our region, in our lifetime, our kids are going to live in a very different world. And this decision is all about how we equip our country to make sure that they're as safe as we were in our childhood.

NATALIE BARR: Jane, what do you think? Because there seem to have been defence papers and white papers years and years ago. Your government had many, years to do something, um, you know, should you have put a bit of money into defence before this?

JANE HUME: Well, let me begin by saying the Coalition is yet to be briefed on this new announcement. Of course, we think that, uh, seeing an upgrade of our fleet is a good idea. There are some concerns, though, about what happens in the short term. We know that HMAS ANZAC, for instance, has been retired now, and HMAS Arunta is due to be retired in 2026. That leaves us with a reduction in our capabilities in the short term. Now, if you believe the experts, the chance of conflict in our region over the next 3 to 5 years is increased quite dramatically. We're a little concerned about what our capabilities are going to be in that short term. Now, we know that under the coalition government, the investment in our maritime capabilities and indeed in our military capabilities increased dramatically almost from a standing start where there were no ships built at all under the Rudd, Gillard, Rudd government. So we have been playing catch up. That said, on the face of it, this potentially could be a welcome announcement as long as we understand what our capabilities are going to be in the short term.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, let's move on to something everyone's talking about. There are fresh concerns, um, the number of asylum seekers arriving in Australia by plane each year is set to grow. Experts are warning the Albanese government to abandon the idea that our borders are the coastline and put more focus on air arrivals. In 2023, more than 23,000 asylum seekers came to Australia by plane. Clare, do you need to put more focus on asylum seekers coming here by air?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, Nat, I'm really pleased you raised this because this is something that I've been talking about as Home Affairs Minister a lot over the previous year and you would have seen us make a really substantial announcement last year about how we're going to tackle this problem and we're doing that. So let me just quickly say, for people who are not familiar with this subject, there is an awful lot of focus on, as you say, our maritime border. But actually one of the main concerns that we have in our protection visa system is people making claims onshore. Now, if those are legitimate claims, then of course Australia is happy to process them. What we are increasingly seeing as a problem is people who are making protection visa claims who have no valid basis for making the claims, and they're really just using it to see how long they can stay in Australia. So this is obviously not good for our migration system. But perhaps more importantly than anything, it really disadvantages people who are actually refugees who actually need stability in our country. So that's why we take this problem so seriously. We made a really big investment in this last year and some significant policy change, and I'll have more to say on the results of that in the coming few months. I would just quickly say, you know, this is one of those very many examples where we heard Peter Dutton talk a lot about this when he was Home Affairs minister, talk a lot about issues he had with the protection visa system. The biggest problem we've ever had with this was when he was Home Affairs minister. He broke records for the number of people who were making onshore PV claims, and broke records for the number of people who were waiting in the queue. They're totally clogging up our migration system. So I take a very different approach. It's calm, it's stable. We do have an issue here, and that's why our government is addressing it.

NATALIE BARR: Yeah Jane. Clare's, right jsn't she? Weren't there around 100,000 people who claimed asylum flew in by air, mostly legally on holiday visas and then after their few months was up claimed asylum and it was under your government?

JANE HUME: Well that was over nine years of government as opposed to just 18 months of the Labor Government. Let's face it, Labor spoke a very big game, they talked very big game about this in opposition and yet we've seen the numbers blow out once they get to government-

CLARE O'NEIL: That's not true.

JANE HUME: I think there's a new record, I've just timed it. It took you three and a half minutes Clare to mention Peter Dutton's name. Clearly he has got well under your skin, well under your skin because he was such a strong Home Affairs Minister and they've been so many failures under you.

NATALIE BARR: So, well it's good that you're smiling Clare.

CLARE O'NEIL: Well thanks for that Jane, that's actually not what all of the expert reports show. Just remember that we have a whole series of expert reports that tell us that Peter Dutton was a disaster in the Home Affairs portfolio-

JANE HUME: And we have 149 criminals wandering around the streets under you.

CLARE O'NEIL: A complete disaster. We've got eminent Australians from right across the country-

NATALIE BARR: Ok I think the figures show-

JANE HUME: Proofs in the pudding.

CLARE O'NEIL: -difference between what he said and what he did.

NATALIE BARR: Most people claiming asylum coming to this country they fly in legally. And I think both governments have had a big issue with this. Finally, I can't let you go without asking this. A leaked text message from the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff has hinted that we could be headed to the polls this year. A message sent to all staff in the PMs office and now it's veteran labor staffer David Epstein was joining as principal private secretary with the text reading and I quote, an important role as we enter the election year unquote. Clare, is this year an election year?

CLARE O'NEIL: Well, it was a text message Nat, so I don't think we should over blow it too much. What I do know-

NATALIE BARR: Written document I guess?

CLARE O'NEIL: is that something the Prime Minister's, something the Prime Minister's talked a lot about to me and to and to the public is that we have had far too much instability in Australian politics for a long time. And we are running a government that has stability and good government at the heart of everything we do.

NATALIE BARR: Yes that's very good, but-

CLARE O'NEIL: I know the Prime Minister is keen to run a fair term that finishes in May 2025 and that's when I'm expecting the election will be.

NATALIE BARR: Were you surprised though when you saw that text? Because as we're saying, that text is a written document, the courts showed that.

CLARE O'NEIL: It's a text. It's a text, billions are sent every day.

NATALIE BARR: Not to all staff.

CLARE O'NEIL: Nat, no just genuinely and very seriously, stability is really important. We've had so much chopping and changing in the last, you know, sort of decade of Australian politics, and it's got to stop but it is stopping with Anthony Albanese.

NATALIE BARR: So you're ruling out an election this year are you?

CLARE O'NEIL: I'm just saying that, you know, the Prime Minister has talked about the fact that he wants to run a full term and I don't think a text message really interrupts that.

JANE HUME: A leaked text message.

CLARE O'NEIL: It's a decision for the Prime Minister ultimately, but we've got a lot to do. We've got a lot of messes to clean up and we've got a big future to plan for, for our country and I'm expecting more until May 2025.

NATALIE BARR: You're expecting. We might just put this tape on the file. See what happens. A year is a long time in politics, even just a week. Thank you very much. We'll see you both next week.