Interview with Natalie Barr, Sunrise

5 February 2025

NATALIE BARR: Jane, welcome back to Sunrise. Everyone to major news on the national security front this morning and the Chinese artificial intelligence app DeepSeek has just been banned from all government devices over concerns the software poses an unacceptable risk to Australia's security, but just like the government's ban on Tiktok, it won't impact everyday Aussies for their take. Let's bring in employment Minister Murray, what and shadow finance minister Jane Hume. Good morning to both of you. Murray, OK, I can go on my phone right now, and the second one down on the App Store, when I look up DeepSeek, it's just there. I can just press the little get button. Why can't? Why can't you? What's so bad about this app?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well, there obviously has been a lot of buzz about this app in the last few days. Nat, but what we've decided as the Australian Government is that we will be banning it from being used on government phones and government computers. Basically the national security assessment that we've received from our security agencies says that it's too high risk to have on government phones, and that really comes down to the way data is being managed by DeepSeek. So obviously it's a decision for every individual whether they want to put that on their phone or not. But from a government point of view, we've said the risk is too high and we won't be allowing it on government phones.

NATALIE BARR: So if it's such a security risk, why is it okay for a lot of Australians? Because it's the number one app in Australia right now. Why is it okay for everyone else?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I guess as a government, we're leaving it for individuals to make their own choices about what apps they put on their phones. But you know, I think you can read something into the fact that the government has decided that it's not secure to have on government phones, and people might want to have a think about that when it comes to their personal phones, we'd already obviously banned Tiktok from government phones as well, and there's millions of Australians who've gone ahead and put that on their personal phones, but we'd certainly be encouraging people to really get Across the online privacy guidelines and rules that DeepSeek has, and make a really good decision about whether they want to take that risk themselves.

NATALIE BARR: Jane, how can the average person make that decision?

JANE HUME: It's very difficult for the average person to make a decision like that, which is one of the reasons why we think it would be a good idea if the government issued some guidelines to the Australian public about why DeepSeek has been banned from government phones so that people can make a more informed choice about what they do with their own phones. We think that that would be a more comprehensive and transparent way of approaching it.

NATALIE BARR: Are you going to do that Murray? Give us some guidelines.

MURRAY WATT: Well, we'll certainly be putting further information out to the Australian public to help them make that kind of decision. But as I say, I think it's a pretty big step that the Australian government has decided that the risk is too high for Australian Government phones, and I think Australian citizens should think very carefully about that with their own phones as well.

NATALIE BARR: It’s kind of like read the room, I guess. Moving on, the New South Wales Transport Minister has resigned from cabinet over her government driver perks and usage of them for personal means. Murray, is this a wake up call to all Australian politicians how much they use these dedicated perks?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I think it is a wake up call for politicians, and I think it's a reminder that we need to use taxpayers' money wisely. I think it was the wrong call from the minister, and I think she did the right thing by stepping down. We've got a responsibility as politicians to use taxpayers' money wisely, and that applies whether it's about making use of cars or other things that we use in our jobs. But frankly, it's the same principle that applies to some of the policies that we're seeing coming out at the moment, I don't think it's a good use of taxpayers money to be spending up to ten billion subsidising long lunches using taxpayers funds, and that's the kind of policy that Jane and her team are coming forward with as well. Those rules apply for politicians. Politicians should use taxpayers' money wisely and I think the same thing when it comes to policies that we're taking to the election as well.

NATALIE BARR: On the car usage Jane, have you ever used your private driver for personal trips?

JANE HUME: I accidentally did once, and I paid the money back the next day. It was just an accidental booking because, you know, I didn't know the rules. I was pretty new on the ground then. But yeah, this is really important, because, you know, you don't want, you've got to make sure that you consider that every dollar that a government spends, whether it be on the perks if you like of the job, or whether it be in policy making, is a dollar that somebody else has earned. Which is why it's so important to spend taxpayer money wisely. Murray is right in that, but he's all talking no action. If you want to see how the Labor Government spends taxpayer money, poorly, wastefully, go to underlabor.com.au. There's a raft of things under this government where they have wasted taxpayer money.

NATALIE BARR: We’ve got an election coming, and we've got plenty of weeks to discuss each side, but we'll leave it there. Thank you very much for your time. We'll see you next week.