Interview with Natalie Barr, Sunrise

10 April 2024

NATALIE BARR: Welcome back to Sunrise. Foreign Minister Penny Wong has made a major call that may impact the Middle East conflict, backing a push to recognise a Palestinian state which could help bring about peace in the region, is the simple truth is that a secure and prosperous future for both Israelis and Palestinians will only come with a two state solution recognition of each other's right to exist a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel. She also urged all parties to return to the negotiating table as the war rages on. For their take, let's bring in Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil and shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume Good morning to both of you, Clare. This signals a major policy shift by your government. How would a Palestinian statehood actually be put in place with Hamas seemingly in charge?

CLARE O’NEIL: Thanks, Nat. The Australian Government has a really proud history of working in times of conflict to bring peace to different regions of the world. And what you're seeing here is the Foreign Minister talking about some ways that she can see that we can not just bring an end to the horribly violent conflict which is on foot at the moment, but build a pathway to sustainable peace so we don't end up with just this consistent cycle of war in this region of the world. Now, I know that you talked in the opening about this being radical. I don't actually agree with that. The concept of Palestinian statehood is something that's been widely talked about in discussion, um, amongst national security professionals all over the world. It is a pretty widespread view that in the end, we do need to see a two state solution in this region. And that's the position that the foreign minister has put forward. And I just say for your viewers at home, what we are trying to do is use the power of our government to bring an end to a violent conflict, which has been going on for far too long, and the foreign minister is trying to see our country play a constructive role in that.

NATALIE BARR: Jane, this puts us at odds with the US Are you concerned about that?

JANE HUME: It certainly is a significant shift away from the bipartisan position that we have always taken with foreign policy, and particularly towards Israel. This is putting statehood ahead of security, and it will be seen as a win for the terrorists. This decision by Penny Wong is unilateral. It is one sided. And it is being done without the consent and concerns of Israel being taken into account. Quite frankly, we cannot have a two state solution that doesn't guarantee the confidence and security of both states to exist, and that the moment that simply doesn't exist. Hamas is still harbouring terrorists. It's still harbouring, it's still hiding hostages in amongst civilian infrastructure and civilians themselves, using them as human shields. The idea that we would reward this kind of behaviour by prematurely offering them statehood, I think, is a significant blow to Jewish Australians who should be rightly concerned with this change in stance of the Labor Government.

NATALIE BARR: Yes, Clare, one Jewish group overnight has said before any talk of statehood is credible Hamas has to be removed. A new leadership must emerge which is not corrupt, doesn't condone violence and recognises Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. Are we there yet?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, what the Foreign Minister talked about yesterday was really clearly stating that Hamas would have no role in a future Palestinian state, and I think that's a given. If I could just say something here about the language and tone of this conversation and just picking up some of the comments that Jane's made there, which I really fundamentally disagree with. We've got to be really careful about how we have this conversation here in Australia and recognise that whilst for many Australians, this conflict feels very remote and very far away, for many people in our country it is anything but. We've got people in our country who have got long standing connections, familial connections and relationships into Israel. We've got the same on the Palestinian side of the conflict. One of the things that Jane and I think are really responsible here is just thinking about how this is going to be discussed in households around our country and trying as much as we can to turn down the temperature of this. We are a brilliant multicultural country because people don't bring conflicts from overseas into the discussion here in Australia. And Jane and I have got responsibilities to make sure that we don't ignite this and feel it more than we need to.

NATALIE BARR: Exactly and I think we've put both sides here. Moving on, a prominent Aboriginal elder has called for land tax exemptions for indigenous people in Victoria, and Premier Jacinta Allan hasn't ruled the idea out, saying the issue would be up for negotiation as the state considers a path to treaty. Clare, what do you think about this?

CLARE O’NEIL: Oh look, Nat, I'll leave that to the Victorian state government. As you know, land tax is a state issue. Our Commonwealth government is focused on a different set of problems. We've got a very big life expectancy gap between indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. We've got really serious issues around the welfare of Aboriginal children, including, you know, kids who are growing up going to school, not starting on the same footing as other children. These are issues that I know I'm very concerned about, I'm sure Jane is very concerned about, and our focus is on those practical problems. What can the Australian government do to close those gaps and to give Indigenous Australians the same chances as anyone else is getting in our country.

NATALIE BARR: Yeah. Jane, Jacinta Price, Warren Mundine have said it's a money grab. They've slammed the idea. Do you think Aboriginal people should be exempt from land tax, including stamp duty council rates, to help them out?

JANE HUME: I'm not sure whether Jacinta Allan was around last year during the voice referendum, where Australians and Victorians resoundingly said that they didn't want to discriminate on the basis of race in our legal and electoral system. Why we should discriminate on the basis of race in our tax system, I don't know. I think that this is a misguided suggestion. I would hope that Jacinta Allan would reject it outright. We do not discriminate on the basis of race in our tax system, and have non-Indigenous Australians essentially pick up the tab.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, finally, Australia is being urged to follow the lead of New Zealand and slash the country's migrant intake and tighten visa rules. It comes as the country introduces a suite of reforms for their work visa, such as setting a new English language requirement and a minimum skills threshold. Clare should we follow suit?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, actually, Nat, what you're seeing there is the New Zealand Government follow the Australian government's leadership here. Your viewers might remember that last year we announced a series of landmark reforms to try to bring our migration system under control after what was ten years of horrible neglect of the system One of the really important initiatives I want your viewers to understand about that is that we are halving migration for our country over a short period of time so that when we get to 1 July of this year, we will be in a normal migration year. It's really important to me that we get this under control-

NATALIE BARR: Didn’t it go up though?

CLARE O’NEIL: we are a great migrant country here in Australia. But yes, so what happened Nat is that of course we had the borders shut for the better part of two years. And as is normal after a border closure, there was a boost in migration for the year that followed. What's happened since then is our government has taken action to halve migration for our country. We are doing that because we want to make sure that we maintain support for this really important programme. We're happy to have migration here in Australia, but we want that to be sustainable.

NATALIE BARR: And when does the halving start?

CLARE O’NEIL: So the halving, we're already well into the process Nat. And when we get to the 1st of July this year and I'm talking about here in a few months time, we will be back in a normal year of migration. We will have halved our migration rate as a country. I think New Zealand is seeing what Australia has done, seeing the success that we are having and saying we'd like some of that too, and going after our policy response, which is something that we should be pleased about.

NATALIE BARR: So, Jane, are you happy with that? We're basically doing a catch up from Covid with our migration system.

JANE HUME: I'm scratching my head. At the end of September last year, there were 578,000 immigrants in that calendar year to the end of September. By the end of June this year, Clare, your target is 375,000 net overseas migration. Are you telling me that we're going to hit that target 375,000, or are we going to overshoot that? Because that's your target.

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, Jane, I mean the number, yeah. the numbers will come out. But the indications are yes, that we'll hit that target.

JANE HUME: Well how big is your big Australia Clare? Because quite frankly, if you're overshooting your own target and you cannot tell us how much even just a couple of months out, I think that well, it makes a mockery of what you just said.

CLARE O’NEIL: That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying at all, Jane. And just, I don't think we need the hyperbole in this conversation. What we've seen here is that the year after the borders opened, there was a boost in migration. As we saw in countries all over the world, our government has acted to bring migration back under control. What that has meant is that our net overseas migration rate will halve over a short period of time.

JANE HUME: So we're going to hit your target?

CLARE O’NEIL: We should be back to normal, we are in a transition year back to normal at the moment. And as of 1 July, we will be in a year of normal migration-

JANE HUME: You’ve been in two years. We’re going to hit your target for the last 12 months?

CLARE O’NEIL: Effectively and effectively, having executed a Covid catch up. And I would say, Jane, very and I'd say, Jane, very respectfully for you, what we have is a number of reports telling us that this was a broken system. We have done an enormous amount of reform-

JANE HUME: Two years you;ve been in Clare.

CLARE O’NEIL: To bring it under control. These are good policies-

NATALIE BARR: Okay, taken that long to catch up. I think we understand those figures. Thank you very much, both of you. We’ll see you next week.