Interview with Pete Stefanovic, First Edition

8 April 2024

PETE STEFANOVIC: Jane Hume, it's good to see you in person. Thanks for coming in today. So Craig Emerson so far, according to the AFR this morning, has called the Coalition’s approach to breaking up the supermarket chains as populist, lacks credibility, it would lead to store closures and job losses. What’s your response to that?

JANE HUME: Well considering the Coalition hasn’t come out with a policy I think that’s a big call from Craig Emerson. Of course, this is an interim report that he has released and let’s be honest, he’s released it to the media, not to the Coalition, so we haven’t been able to see it yet. We will go through that report very carefully and in great detail. We do know that prices at the supermarket are causing people a lot of pain in their hip pocket. Prices have already gone up by around 10% in the last two years alone. The price of bread has gone up by around 17.5%, the price of milk has gone up by around 16.5%. So we know that Australian consumers are feeling it in their hip pocket. Is this the right response? Well, we'll wait and see to read the report and go through it in great detail. However, what I would say is you can question how genuine the Government is on this issue if, at the same time they're trying to beat up the supermarkets, they're also levying a tax on farmers through a biosecurity levy, which of course gets immediately passed on through higher prices of groceries; if they're levying a tax on truckies through diesel fuel charges, which also gets directly passed on to the price of groceries; and if they're not getting the prices of energy under control; and they're inflicting enormous changes to the industrial relations system, which locks up these big supermarket companies in a lot of red tape with their employment contracts. All of these things are feeding higher prices. There isn't just one solution. There are plenty of solutions. And quite frankly, I'd question the Government's sincerity when they say they want to get supermarket prices down if they're doing all these other things. 

PETE STEFANOVIC: Alright, what's your solution? 

JANE HUME: Well, we will come back to you with…(interrupted) 

PETE STEFANOVIC: So don't have one yet?  

JANE HUME: No, that's not at all what I say. The first thing we would do is get inflation down. I mean, quite frankly, the way to get prices down is to get inflation down, get inflation under control. This Government has shown no real appetite to get inflation under control because its spending is still out of control, $209 billion just in the last two years alone: additional spending. Of course, this means that inflation stays higher for longer, interest rates stay higher for longer, and people are doing it tough. Surely that has got to be the first thing. In the meantime, though, we will look at supermarket powers and we will look at whether they are being fair on farmers and passing on price reductions to consumers. We'll look at that through a different lens. 

PETE STEFANOVIC: So Craig Emerson, this is back on the idea of divesting the supermarket giants, he basically says that if the giants are forced to sell... so say you've got a Woolworths and then they've got to sell a Metro, for example, then his concern is that Metro could just be picked up by another giant. So then it becomes counterproductive and then leads to greater market concentration. Do you share that view at all? 

JANE HUME: Well, there's always concern with divestiture powers whether they will actually decrease prices. In the same way though you would also… (interrupted)  

PETE STEFANOVIC: But you're looking at that aren’t you? 

JANE HUME: You would also consider whether enormous fines, the way that Craig Emerson is considering, whether they will have the effect of increasing or decreasing prices.

PETE STEFANOVIC: But are you looking at divestiture?

JANE HUME: Certainly we are looking at a way to make sure that supermarkets pass on those lower prices from the farm gate onto consumers, and perhaps that might be part of the mix. But the most important thing here is that we have a competitive supermarket industry that also has lower input costs, whether it be through industrial relations, whether it be through energy prices, whether it be through the prices that farmers have to charge for their produce. And quite frankly, if you're not getting those things right, well, of course the supermarkets have to pass on higher prices. 

PETE STEFANOVIC: Okay, do you have concerns that, I mean, breaking a mandatory code of conduct, I mean, a $10 million fine or whatever it is for a multi-billion dollar company, that's just pocket change, is it not? 

JANE HUME: It's enormous. No, it's very-

PETE STEFANOVIC: You think it is?

JANE HUME: -it’s absolutely significant. And it will be significant too for shareholders.

PETE STEFANOVIC: So you support that then?

JANE HUME: And let's not forget who the shareholders are. The shareholders are superannuation funds and superannuation members that own those companies.

PETE STEFANOVIC: Right, so you support that then, that big stick approach then from Craig Emerson with the big fines if they breach a mandatory code of conduct?

JANE HUME: Well there's already significant fines available to those that breach competitive clauses. 

PETE STEFANOVIC: But that's not mandatory. 

JANE HUME: No, the code of conduct isn't mandatory. The code of conduct is voluntary, and quite frankly, looking at a mandatory code of conduct is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm sure that's the recommendation of the report. We'll wait until we see the report to see the details of how that will be managed, because the ACCC can already do this, and if the ACCC can already do this, what additional powers do you want to give them? 

PETE STEFANOVIC: Okay, and Angus Taylor David Littleproud they're still looking at their review. No change on that front at the moment? 

JANE HUME: It's still underway. 

PETE STEFANOVIC: Full steam ahead okay. Just a final one, a third boat arrival since November last year. The Government says this is Operation Sovereign Borders working. The new boatload - they're already in Nauru. I mean, isn't that just what you guys would be doing if you were in power? If a boat arrival came, they would be shipped off straight away? 

JANE HUME: Quite frankly, the undermining of Operation Sovereign Borders over the last two years is what's brought this third boat that has arrived. Let's remember, it arrived undetected, it has dropped off asylum seekers, and then it has returned undetected. This isn't the third boat arrival. There's apparently been around 14 boat arrivals, just as this is the third that's gone undetected. That's really concerning. That's very concerning. The fact that the floodgates have been opened, that the people smugglers believe that they can now sell a passage to Australia that will allow people to stay here permanently, that there is a permanent pathway to residency by arriving here illegally, that's of great concern. That's on the Government because they have undermined Operation Sovereign Borders. 

PETE STEFANOVIC: All right. Jane Hume, we're out of time. Appreciate you coming in, though. 

JANE HUME: Thank you so much.