Interview with Peter Fegan, 4BC Breakfast

25 March 2025

PETER FEGAN: Senator Jane Hume joins me on the line. Senator, thanks for your company this morning, it's great to be with you, Peter. So let's start with the hiring freeze and the big cuts to the public service. That's the main reason you think the size of the service needs to shrink, is that the core reason?

JANE HUME: Well, I want to be very clear on this, our concern is that the public servant has blown out in size dramatically. Under this Government, there's 36,000 new public servants. That's a 20% increase in just three years. It's about 40 new public servants every single day since Labor came to office. But of course, the real problem is, for those 36,000 new public servants, do you feel better served? I don't think that a bigger public service necessarily delivers better public services. So I've seen things like an increase in the wait times to get an age pension claim. For instance, now about 76 days over the last 12 months, compared to around 36 days under the Coalition Government. To get a low income car takes five times longer under Labor than it did under the Coalition. And more than that, things like a 40% increase in the size of the Health Department has seen bulk billing rates collapse. And we've seen almost a doubling of the size of the Energy and Environment portfolio, but that one approval times have blown out and emissions are up. And that social services, you know, that's where a lot of the numbers are in the social services portfolio but now it takes you, if you call the parenting and families line for instance, you're an hour on hold. Bigger public service doesn't necessarily mean better public services. There's got to be a better way of delivering what it is that taxpayers expect and deserve from their public service without simply adding more bodies to the payroll.

PETER FEGAN: Senator, my question would be this, say 36,000 people do lose their jobs. That's 36,000 Australians. It's 36,000 Australians that will have to be paid out or made redundant. That's taxpayer money. Then there's 36,000 people without a job that are possibly going on to benefits. How much are you willing to save? And mean, are you, are you prepared for the unemployment rate to rise?

JANE HUME: Well, let me just say that the additional 36,000 public servants costs the taxpayer around $6 billion additional a year. So that's extraordinary spending from this government. But I suppose more importantly, what we want to see is a right sizing of the public service. We think that this can be done in a meaningful and practical way that over time, that will bring down the size of the public service, but continue to deliver the services that Australians expect and deserve from their public service.

PETER FEGAN: That’s fine, Senator. But what do we do with the 36,000 people? That's the question. Where do those 36,000 people go?

JANE HUME: Well the private sector are telling us that they are crying out for skilled labour, absolutely crying out for labour, and in fact, that crowding out of the private sector is being affected because the public service is getting bigger and bigger.

PETER FEGAN: I don’t think you'll have Senator too many people that will disagree with saving a bit of money, particularly on the public service, as long as we ensure and look these 36,000 people that may lose their jobs yes, they were hired under a Labour government that was reckless in spending, but they are good people. They're still doing a job that they were hired to do. It's not their fault.

JANE HUME: I have absolutely no doubt that they're good people. There are some very, very good problem solvers in the public service. We want to make sure that they have a chance to come back to the office and solve some of those very big problems that our country is facing. Because, you know, let's face it. We're seeing the Budget papers tonight, but there's red ink as far as the eye can see. Two windfall surpluses caused by high commodity prices and high taxes have now been turned into deficits. We're going to need all hands on deck to make sure that we can deal with this crisis. Now, that said, does that mean more hands on deck or better hands on deck? That's the difference. That's the difference...

PETER FEGAN: Okay. Hypothetical…

JANE HUME: You’ll see a cut to that wasteful spending...

PETER FEGAN: Hypothetical, Senator before we move on. Hypothetical, okay. 34 year old, single mother, three kids all at school, works for the public service, loses a job under the Coalition's cut to the public service, doesn't find a new job.

JANE HUME: Well, I don't think that that's a particularly helpful description.

PETER FEGAN: Well, there's 36,000 people that are going to lose their job Senator. I think it's a fair question.

JANE HUME: Well, there's 36,000 people that have joined the public service that we don't think necessarily adding to better public services. The taxpayer has an expectation that when they pay somebody's wages, and that's exactly what they're doing with this public service, that they will get better public services. If you're not getting better public services. Well, why would you maintain that very high payroll? Now with that said, we don't think that- this is not going to be day one coming to we want to make sure that we right size the public service and deliver the services that people expected that they're not getting now for the price that they're paying dollars a year that you're paying for these additional public service could be so much better spent doing really important work. It could be better spent on health and education. It could be better spent on our defence forces. It could be better spent making sure that we deliver prosperity to the country that has fallen away because the standard of living in this country has gone backwards by 8% in the last three years alone…

PETER FEGAN: I just hope

JANE HUME: …It's gone backwards is because of that high inflation and high interest rates. And one of the reasons we have high inflation, inflation that stayed too high for too long, is because of excessive government spending the kids working against the Reserve Bank. So the Reserve Bank's got its foot on the brake. Government's got its foot on the accelerator.

PETER FEGAN: Senator, I agree with you. I think, I think we need to trim some of the corporate, some of the public service fat that we have at the moment to use a better term, probably, but look, I think we've got to make sure and that hypothetical I put to you sure you may not accept that, but there surely would have been case studies presented to the coalition when you came up with this plan, surely you went, okay, maybe there are going to be some people that are in that situation.

JANE HUME: I don't think that an Australian taxpayer expects the government to take on people as some sort of make work scheme. We want to make sure that we're delivering on the services Australians expected to serve government isn't there as some sort of work for the dole. We want to make sure that we are delivering a right sized public service that delivers the services that you expect and that you deserve. Because let's face it, every single dollar that is paid for by a government, every single dollar that pays for a public servant's wages, is a dollar that somebody else earned first, and we should remember that every single day. We should remember that tonight when Labor delivers their budget, because let's face it, if we see that government spending that incredible largest that is your money that's being used. And if you don't believe that they're using your money effectively to deliver you more prosperity, to deliver you more opportunity, to deliver you more community safety. Well, then this government will have failed.

PETER FEGAN: Senator, very quickly. We've got to be very careful tonight, just on that budget, Labor will deliver what they will tell Australians is a Budget under surplus. What about off Budget spending? We've got to be very careful. A lot of people don't realise what's not in the Budget.

JANE HUME: Well, there is no surplus tonight. Let's be very clear, there will be a deficit tonight. There were two surpluses that were delivered by windfall gains from commodity prices and high taxes. But that's now red ink as far as the eye can see. Deficits as far as we go. Now, yes, you're right off budget, off balance sheet spending is a concern because, you know, the OECD have said that that could potentially keep inflation higher for longer. And we've seen so much under this government, whether it be the Housing Australia Future Fund that hasn't delivered a single house, a National Reconstruction Fund that seems to have failed to have made any meaningful investments. A Rewiring the Nation fund to put transmission lines criss crossing across the nation because of Labor's renewable only approach to energy management, which has also seen bills go up. All of these off balance funds are costing Australians money. So don't be fooled. Just because something is off balance sheet, it doesn't necessarily mean it won’t cost Australians money, and more often than not, it's money that's been borrowed in your name and sometimes without your permission.

PETER FEGAN: And you're excited about today, aren't you, Senator? You're back in Parliament.

JANE HUME: And Budget week is always an interesting one. The most important thing, though, is that tonight we see a Budget that isn't for the next five weeks. We want to see it for the next five years, and it will restore your last standard of living, because, let's face it, we've all got poorer under Labor. It's not in your head. You've gone backwards in the last three years, and if this budget doesn't restore your standard of living, well, it's failed to do its job.

PETER FEGAN: Good on you Senator. Always great to chat, and we'll chat again very soon. There she is Senator Jane Hume.