Interview with Sally Sara, RN Breakfast

5 February 2025

SALLY SARA: Labor and the Coalition are still locked in negotiations over proposed changes to electoral laws that have infuriated the crossbench. They've called it a stitch up between the major two parties. Some of the changes are less controversial, like lowering the threshold at which donations have to be disclosed, but independents and minor parties say other changes will create an uneven playing field. Jane Hume is the Shadow Finance Minister and Shadow Special Minister of State. I spoke to her a short time ago.

JANE HUME: Great to be with you, Sally.

SALLY SARA: You're leading the negotiations with Labor's Don Farrell over these proposed changes. If you and the government team up to get this done, will it be harder for someone to get elected without the backing of a major party in your view?

JANE HUME: Sally, it won't come as a surprise to know that the Coalition and the government have been talking about electoral reform, about 90 to 95% of legislation that is passed in Parliament House is done between the government and the opposition, with the cross bench being part of making up the rest of that legislation. So there's only a small proportion of legislation that is controversial. Almost inevitably, with legislation like this, the government will reach out first to the opposition, so this isn't a surprise. But we do want to make sure that our electoral system is fair and reasonable, both for parties and also for anybody else that wants to run. That's part of a healthy democracy.

SALLY SARA: So tell me about the safeguards that have been included to make sure it's an even playing field for independents and minor parties.

JANE HUME: Well, I'm not going to talk to you about the legislation. It's government's legislation, and they can explain to you what it is that they are proposing.

SALLY SARA: What safeguards are you wanting to protect the independents?

JANE HUME: I'm seriously not going to speak to you about government legislation. This is the government's legislation, and they can speak to you about what it is that they want to see and what it is that they want us to agree to. But what I will say is that (interrupted).

SALLY SARA (INTERRUPTS): But if you want changes that’s a fair question.

JANE HUME: that negotiations have been held in good faith, and they will continue to be held in good faith and my understanding is, and this is something probably better directed to Minister Farrell, is that he has spoken to not just the Coalition opposition, but also the crossbenchers, whether it be the teal independents, whether it be The Greens or whether it be other independents, that he's spoken to all of them, and I think that's the evidence that he's that he's given you.

SALLY SARA: Do you want safeguards from your side? I mean, you have your list of what you're looking for. Do you want safeguards to be there for the minor parties and independents?

JANE HUME: We want to make sure that there is an opportunity for all parties to run on an even playing field. Minister Farrell has been pretty clear about removing that influence of big money from, you know, political donations, and I can understand exactly why that might be. I think when we saw the rise of the teals and also United Australia party, we could see where big money was influencing political outcomes, and that's something that I know Minister Farrell has been concerned about from day one of this government.

SALLY SARA: We spoke to Jacqui Lambie and David Pocock on Breakfast yesterday. Here's a little of what Jacqui Lambie had to say.

JACQUI LAMBIE (EXCERPT): Why don't you go and try and get your some of your people up on that 800,000 bucks, and do that one on one, without them being known, without them flowing under your flag, because that's rubbish, and that's not going to give independents out there a fair go in the future. It's all about the majors, and that's all it is and that's why he does not want to speak to us.

SALLY SARA: That’s Jacqui Lambie talking about the $800,000 cap and making the argument that candidates from the major parties will have that cap, but also benefit from the $90 million that parties will still be able to spend nationally. That's an unfair advantage, isn't it?

JANE HUME: $800,000 per electorate, I think, is an enormous amount of money.

SALLY SARA: But the parties, the major parties, have more than that. Correct?

JANE HUME: Well, they have a cap through which they spend for each electorate as well as anybody else. I'm not entirely sure what it is that Jacqui is pushing back on here. I think if you spent $800,000 getting elected in a particular seat, that would be enormous.

SALLY SARA: How much did you spend last time?

JANE HUME: Well, I'm a Senator, so obviously I look after the entire state. My job is to help other electorates get across the line. I can't tell you what dollar amount that would be dedicated to any one electorate, but I know electorates that have run campaigns on a 10th, like less than a 10th of that.

SALLY SARA: So why do the major parties then need an extra 90 million?

JANE HUME: Well, this is a question that's much better directed to government, because they are the ones that are putting forward this legislation. They're the ones that have set these parameters, and it's up to now either the Coalition or the crossbench to agree to them or not.

SALLY SARA: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast, where Jane Hume, the Shadow Finance Minister and Shadow Special Minister of State, is my guest. Let's talk about a different issue, anti-Semitism. Independent Allegra Spender is proposing an amendment to the government's hate speech legislation that would make it an offense for anyone to promote hate against a marginalised group. What do you think about that? Do you support that idea?

JANE HUME: Well, I certainly support the idea of anything that would curtail and curb the disturbing rise of anti-Semitism that we've seen in Australia in the last 15 to 18 months or so. I live very close to a number of Jewish communities in Melbourne, and I speak to a lot of those constituents. One of them, one couple told me, they live in Elsternwick, and one couple told me that they are seriously considering moving to Tel Aviv because they feel safer, they would feel safer in Tel Aviv than they would in Elsternwick. Now, that is a scourge that is a shame on us, that we have allowed our own citizens to feel unsafe in their own homes, in their own streets, in their own businesses. Our concern is the rise of anti-Semitism has gone unchecked in the last 15 to 18 months in this country, and that's because of the weak leadership of the Prime Minister on this issue that he has said one thing to one community and then gone out and done another thing with another community. That he's courting the votes of inner-city seats or or those seats that have high Muslim populations, but at the same time saying a different thing to Jewish communities and Jewish communities are rightly angry, and they should be. We shouldn't allow this scourge to occur, and we need much tougher penalties, which is why I think James Paterson and Michaelia Cash have been very clear on the Coalition's determination to bring in mandatory sentencing for terrorist offenses, up to six years for terrorist offenses, and also one year for those that are brandishing the symbols of hate, which at the moment, we simply don't have. We also want to see tougher penalties, much tougher penalties on those that are threatening and inciting violence towards places of worship.

SALLY SARA: Senator, the Coalition wants the Racial Discrimination Act to be beefed up. It wasn't that long ago that the Coalition wanted Section 18C scrapped altogether. When you look back at that now, was the Coalition wrong to have pursued it in that way? We would have had stronger laws in place perhaps?

JANE HUME: That was a debate of some time ago, and the issue was around the wording around 18C, what racial discrimination looked like. I think that what we've seen here is a specific rise in anti-Semitism, and that's something that we need to deal with in the strongest possible way. Peter Dutton has been very clear and very strong on this. We have to respond to the weak responses that we've seen so far in order to protect our own community.

JANE HUME: Senator, let's talk lunch. The opposition has been attacked by Labor on your lunches for small business policy. Labor says that conservatively it would cost $1.6

billion, that's the costings that it received. Why doesn't the Coalition just release its own costings?

JANE HUME: What absolute nonsense the government has come out with here. I mean, let's put aside the fact that they have plenty to do themselves, but somehow they're concentrating on a Coalition policy announcement. More importantly, they then went and asked the Public Service, politicised the Public Service, asking them to cost a Coalition policy. Now, the Treasury Secretary has come out and said that he hasn't costed a Coalition policy, that it was simply the parameters that Jim Chalmers gave him that that's what they costed. Well, again, what's Jim Chalmers doing? Shouldn't he be concentrating on his own policies? Shouldn't he be concentrating on lowering inflation, improving economic growth, restoring the standard of living that we have now lost, that have gone backwards?

SALLY SARA: Has the Coalition costed this policy?

JANE HUME: We have costed this policy. Of course, we've costed this policy. By convention, oppositions use the Parliamentary Budget Office, and we trust the Parliamentary Budget Office. Indeed, it was something that was introduced by a Labor Government to stop this very behavior. This policy (interrupted).

SALLY SARA (INTERRUPTS): So if you trust those numbers and that process, why not release the numbers so the public knows what it might cost and they can weigh up in their mind, is this a good policy to support or not?

JANE HUME: We absolutely will, and by convention, as Labor oppositions and Coalition oppositions have done in the past, we will release all of our costings prior to the election.

SALLY SARA: At a time when we're seeing high levels of insolvency and a lot of small businesses are battling, do you really think that a tax deductible lunch is the top of the agenda for small business owners?

JANE HUME: Well, it certainly is for small business owners that run hospitality businesses, 1300 of which have gone under in the last six months of this Labor Government.

SALLY SARA: So this is about businesses helping the hospitality sector?

JANE HUME: It’s about both. It’s about both, it's a win win. It helps more businesses, you know, do something for their teams or do something for their clients, but it also helps those hospitality businesses that have been at the pointy end of Labor's cost of living crisis, and they've come up very strongly in favor of this policy. Let's understand only about 52% of small businesses are currently turning a profit in Australia. So the Treasurer's belief that small business owners will be dining out on caviar just demonstrates a detachment from the lived reality.

SALLY SARA (INTERRUPTS): If half are struggling, do you think they'll be going out to lunch?

JANE HUME: Well, this is something that we would hope would generate more business, generate a sense of loyalty and opportunity and camaraderie within an office too.

SALLY SARA: Senator Hume, time has run out for us. Thank you so much for coming into the studio.

JANE HUME: Great to be with you, Sally.