Panel with Natalie Barr and Clare O'Neil, Sunrise

13 September 2023

NATALIE BARR: The independent watchdog on politicians’ expenses has revealed shocking new information relating to the Deputy Prime Minister's multi-million dollar VIP flight saga. The Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority says the Defence Department has blocked it from accessing documents detailing Richard Marles flights and the details of every other Minister flying on military planes for nearly two years. Mr. Marles was given a deadline of today to hand over documents relating to the $3.6 million flight bill, but says doing so could create a security target. Let's bring in Home Affairs Minister Clare O'Neil and Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume, good morning to both of you. Clare, the Defence Department paused the provision of handing over information, including passenger manifest to the watchdog last year pending a security review. But why has the Government not tabled any documents since then?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, Nat, you mentioned in your opening that this decision about this interaction between these two parts of Government was made two years ago when Peter Dutton was the Defence Minister. So let's just be absolutely clear about how this has happened and why. Nat, we've talked about this on your show before and I want your viewers to understand that we have a fantastic person as our Defence Minister in Australia. It is absolutely incumbent on this person, whoever is the Defence Minister, to have to travel extensively as part of their work. We have a Defence portfolio where the Minister has to be overseas and around different parts of the country all the time. Richard Marles is a person of great integrity. Labor has made the decision to put one of the smartest people in our caucus in charge of this really critical area of Government and he's doing a fantastic job.

NATALIE BARR: Yeah, and it's great that he's smart and he's doing his job because that's what he's paid for. But Clare, you talk about transparency. If this was cancelled, the documents weren't handed over two years ago, why didn't you guys think, well, this is wrong, why don't we sort it out?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, Nat, you'll need to talk to Peter Dutton about why he made the decision that these documents.

NATALIE BARR: We’ll get to him in a second and I’ll ask Jane. But on your Government, you've been in for 18 months now or so, so why didn't you think, well,

hang on, this is wrong. Why don't we hand over the documents now so they can be checked?

CLARE O’NEIL: Yeah. So I only became aware of this morning, Nat, so I'm not sure exactly what the logistics are between these two departments, but what I would just say is that Richard Marles is doing his job as Defence Minister. It involves him using his flights. We've talked about on this show before the fact that we've got national security advice which tells us that we can't reveal about the locations of these flights and so that explains why that information has not been provided yet. But I just reiterate again you know, the Coalition had six Defence Ministers in six years. They used the Defence portfolio as a departure lounge for MPs who'd been in Parliament for too long. We've taken a different approach. We've got someone who is turning around the Defence Force to help make our country safer for my children and yours. And I'm very proud to work alongside Richard Marles. He's doing a fantastic job.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, Jane, the Defence Department sounds like it stopped providing passenger details to the watchdog when Peter Dutton was Defence Minister in December 2021 for five months, until you guys got kicked out of Government. Why was that?

JANE HUME: It sounds to me like Nat, there was a review going on and that review around the guidelines of how we use special purpose vehicles and what reports are made for those security purposes was initiated under the last Government. But of course it reported during this Government and since that time, that report has been sitting on Richard Marles’ desk. Now what we want to understand is why those reports have now not been re-initiated. Why haven't they been made public? Why haven't they been made transparent? That's why the Coalition has demanded that the Defence Minister report back to the Senate and explain to a particular committee, the PJCIS, which is the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, exactly what the security reasons are. We don't need the security issues to be made public. We don't want to put anybody at risk. But we do want to understand why this decision was made. That's really the crux of the issue, because otherwise it's just like Qatar. You know, it's the Qatar decision. If you can't explain why you're making a decision, that's not transparent.

NATALIE BARR: And it also sounds like before December 2021, the information had been released and I don't know whether we can just keep saying Richard Marles is a great guy and he's doing his job, because that's fantastic. But we're not getting to the bottom of it, so hopefully we will soon. Moving on. Linda Burney has been forced to step in and call for care and respect from both sides to the Voice to Parliament debate. The comments come after Yes campaigner Professor Marcia Langton accused the no camp of racism and stupidity. Take a listen.

MARCIA LANGTON (EXCERPT): Every time the no case raises one of their arguments, if you start pulling it apart, you get down to base racism. I'm sorry to say it, but that's where it lands. Or just sheer stupidity.

NATALIE BARR: Claire, do both sides need to take a step back and show a bit more respect when debating The Voice?

CLARE O’NEIL: Well, Nat, I think Marcia Langton's comments were taken a bit out of context there. I've had a look at the speech and I, you know, I've had a look at the speech. But let me just say that, you know, one of the unique things about a referendum in this country is that we all get an equal vote as Australian citizens. Jane and I are politicians, but our vote means the same as every one of our constituents. We are trying to lead a debate that's respectful and that's focused on the actual issue here. What I'm frustrated about with the way the No campaign conducts itself sometimes is they want to talk about everything except what the referendum is actually about.

JANE HUME: This is the Yes campaign Clare.

CLARE O’NEIL: Sorry, Jane, if I could just finish my sentence. This is really about the fact that we have an 8 or 9 year life expectancy gap between Indigenous Australians and non-Indigenous Australians. An Indigenous mum is three times more likely to die in childbirth than a mum from another culture. That's just totally wrong and we don't have a way to deal with this.

JANE HUME: Clare, this is the Yes campaign calling anyone who doesn’t agree with them racist.

CLARE O’NEIL: Jane. Let me talk about this essential issue for our country.

JANE HUME: Am I racist Clare? Is that what you’re saying?

CLARE O’NEIL: Jane, that is a disgraceful thing to say. That is a disgraceful thing to say. You should be debating the referendum.

JANE HUME: That’s what Marcia Langton said. She is calling the million of Australians that are voting No racist.

CLARE O’NEIL: That is not true.

JANE HUME: This is outrageous. The Prime Minister needs to condemn it.

CLARE O’NEIL: I get it. Jane, if you don't mind, I'd love to say a sentence or two here. Let me just be really clear. The No campaign wants to talk about anything other than what the referendum is actually about and that is two simple things. Recognition of our First Nations history and consultation with First Nations people about issues that affect them. It's a simple, generous ask, and I ask Australians to vote yes on October 14th.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, I think everyone's had their say. We have four more weeks until the referendum. Thank you. See you next week.